Electrical Panel inset between studs of garage

[Yankee]

R302.6 Dwelling/garage fire separation.The garage shall be separated as required by Table R302.6. Openings in garage walls shall comply with Section R302.5. This provision does not apply to garage walls that are perpendicular to the adjacent dwelling unit wall.

My understanding is the wall in question is perpendicular to the dwelling unit (exterior wall) Section 302.5 does not apply

The wall will have two 2x top plates fill the annular space where the electrical wire penetrates the top plate with fire caulk and don't worry about it.

Your red highlighted line only is applicable when there is NO LIVING SPACE ABOVE. Please see chart. Ist block SEPARATION FROM THE RESIDENCE means the living space adjacent AND any living space ABOVE, being supported by the ceiling/floor assembly.

R302.6 Dwelling/garage fire separation. The garage shall be separated as required by Table R302.6. Openings in garage walls shall comply with Section R302.5. This provision does not apply to garage walls that are perpendicular to the adjacent dwelling unit wall.

TABLE R302.6 DWELLING/GARAGE SEPARATION

SEPARATION	MATERIAL
From the residence and attic	Not less than 1⁄2-inch gypsum board or equivalent applied to the garage side
From all habitable rooms above the garage	Not less than 5⁄8-inch Type X gypsum board or equivalent
Structure(s) supporting floor/ceiling assemblies used for separation required by this section	Not less than 1⁄2-inch gypsum board or equivalent
Garages located less than 3 feet from a dwelling unit on the same lot	Not less than 1⁄2-inch gypsum board or equivalent applied to the interior side of exterior walls that are within this area

 

[Francis Vineyard]

The requirement for other than separation walls supporting habitable floor above shall be covered with ½ gypsum (on the interior side of the garage).

R302.5.3; other penetrations in these walls are required to be sealed around the openings; the penetrations are not rated or required to be fire-resistance. Fire blocking is not required in this area.

Francis

 

[mtlogcabin]

R302.6 Dwelling/garage fire separation.The garage shall be separated as required by Table R302.6. Openings in garage walls shall comply with Section R302.5. This provision does not apply to garage walls that are perpendicular to the adjacent dwelling unit wall.

RR302.6 just clarifies what is already stated in R302.5.

302.5 Dwelling/garage opening/penetration protection.

Openings and penetrations through the walls or ceilings separating the dwelling from the garage shall be in accordance with Sections R302.5.1 through R302.5.3.

The wall in question does not separate the dwelling from the garage it only provides support.

 

[Yankee]

The requirement for other than separation walls supporting habitable floor above shall be covered with ½ gypsum (on the interior side of the garage). R302.5.3; other penetrations in these walls are required to be sealed around the openings; the penetrations are not rated or required to be fire-resistance. Fire blocking is not required in this area.

Francis

Could you say that again, I am not sure I get the jist? And thank you

 

[Yankee]

RR302.6 just clarifies what is already stated in R302.5.

302.5 Dwelling/garage opening/penetration protection.

Openings and penetrations through the walls or ceilings separating the dwelling from the garage shall be in accordance with Sections R302.5.1 through R302.5.3.

The wall in question does not separate the dwelling from the garage it only provides support.

Ok, I have grasped that (finally). Are you saying that penetrations are allowed without restriction in the required gyp board applied to supporting walls (that are not separation walls)?

 

[mtlogcabin]

Yes...........

 

[north star]

~ $ ~

Yankee,

So that I am clear on your application, ...is your wall in question,

a "separation wall", or

a "load bearing wall", or

an "exterior load bearing, non-separation wall", or

an "interior load bearing, non-separation wall", or

something else?.........Thank you!

~ $ ~

 

[Francis Vineyard]

Could you say that again, I am not sure I get the jist? And thank you

Yankee my staff they are in agreement with mtlogcabin.

My interpretation is the provision or exception applied only to openings; which is a no brainer. I on the other hand had conclude it if meant for penetrations it should read "Openings and penetrations in garage walls shall comply with Section R302.5. This provision does not . . .

R302.6 Dwelling/garage fire separation. The garage shall be separated as required by Table R302.6. Openings in garage walls shall comply with Section R302.5. This provision does not apply to garage walls that are perpendicular to the adjacent dwelling unit wall.

Even with detached garage and habitable space above the supporting construction required to have ½ gypsum and all the penetrations need not be sealed against products of combustion. The energy code however requires the separation to be air sealed will provide protection at least from carbon monoxide.

Francis

Francis

 

[Yankee]

~ $ ~Yankee,

So that I am clear on your application, ...is your wall in question,

a "separation wall", or

a "load bearing wall", or

an "exterior load bearing, non-separation wall", or

an "interior load bearing, non-separation wall", or

something else?.........Thank you!

~ $ ~

The wall in question is a structure supporting a floor/ceiling assembly of living space above.

I believe it is required to have 1/2" gyp board applied to the garage side in order to provide a 15 minute thermal barrier for the protection of the framing members in the event of a fire in the garage.

I also believe it is to have fire blocking (302.11) and draft stopping (302.12) as required in those sections.

I also believe that because it is a thermal separation to provide protection for the wood framing members the intent is for the separation to be continuous on the garage side.

A inset panel is not an "opening" needing protection under 302.5.1

It is not a duct under 302.5.2

It is not a penetration under 302.5.3 AS DESCRIBED under 302.11 ITEM 4



Therefore I conclude that the door/face of the panel should be "an equivalent to the 1/2" gyp required on the interior of the garage.

And that all makes sense to me until I notice that the section does not specify WOOD walls. . .what if they are metal stud. . . or concrete block. . . oh crap.

 

[Paul Sweet]

I believe that it wasn't unusual to leave the wood framing in attached garages exposed before the old CABO 1 & 2 Family Dwelling Code required 1/2" gypsum board inside a garage. 1/2" gypsum board was cheap and easy to apply, and provided some protection, so that was made the required protection. An electric panel would have 3 thicknesses of steel, with a couple air spaces between them. I don't think it would burn through any faster than the surrounding wall. It's best not to over-think something like this.

As a Man With Pencil Who Draws, I always called for 5/8" fire-rated gypsum board on walls & ceilings of a garage, although I have to admit that I used to leave the 4" steel pipe column in the middle of the garage exposed. Nowadays I'll usually call for a concrete-filled pipe column.

 

[globe trekker]

The question still remains. How can a code official allow a non-rated electrical panel in

this location? I think that we can all agree that an electrical panel (will probably)

provide some type of equivalent time rating as that of the "required" 1/2" gyp. board.

As "north star" mentioned in post # 16, ...where is the documentatiion to allow this

elec. panel to remain installed in this wall as it is? I believe that "Yankee" is

asking for "the letter" of the code in this application, and not opinions & common

sense.

Can we help him to get there with documentation, or should he ask for/require

one of the previously mentioned options?

.

 

[mtlogcabin]

How can a code official allow a non-rated electrical panel inthis location?

Because it is a none rated wall. Requiring 1/2 gypsum board only provides 15 minutes of additional protection for the studs.

 

[Yankee]

Because it is a none rated wall. Requiring 1/2 gypsum board only provides 15 minutes of additional protection for the studs.

Since both metal and gyp are non-combustible I don't see it as a "burn-through" issue. Can we agree that Gyp provides a 15 minute thermal barrier, and metal provides a zero minute thermal barrier? Again, think "clearance reductions". Metal by itself does not provide any protection for combustible materials behind it because it transmits heat, quite the opposite of a thermal barrier.Again, it seems to me this is an attempt at a thermal barrier between hot fire and combustible material.

I guess the core of my question is, is this section attempting to provide a thermal barrier? If it isn't, I'm good to go with the metal cabinet. If it is, then my "common sense" tells me the metal doesn't cut it.

BTW, that term "common sense" IMHO is a useless saying. Common sense is based on a persons wide body of knowledge, it isn't some secret ingredient. In my experience most people that use that saying are missing some of the knowledge they need to assess a situation.

 

[ICE]

As "north star" mentioned in post # 16, ...where is the documentatiion to allow thiselec. panel to remain installed in this wall as it is?

Where is the code that says that the panel can't be installed in the wall?

I believe that "Yankee" is asking for "the letter" of the code in this application, and not opinions & common sense.

Nobody can come up with a code so Yankee is left with his opinion. Common sense isn't being applied.

 

[Yankee]

ICE, is it your opinion that this provision is in place to provide a thermal barrier, or not. If so, would you please speak to the properties of a thermal barrier. If not, please opinion as to what is being accomplised with this provision ( given that fire blocking and smoke are already spoken to entirely in other sections)

 

[ICE]

ICE, is it your opinion that this provision is in place to provide a thermal barrier, or not. If so, would you please speak to the properties of a thermal barrier. If not, please opinion as to what is being accomplised with this provision ( given that fire blocking and smoke are already spoken to entirely in other sections)

Keeping in mind that the wall in question is an exterior wall that is being protected because it supports the separation between the garage and the dwelling, what code sections are you talking about?

 

[Yankee]

Keeping in mind that the wall in question is an exterior wall that is being protected because it supports the separation between the garage and the dwelling, what code sections are you talking about?

fire blocking (302.11) and draft stopping (302.12). Both of these sections apply (potentially) to this wall. Since these sections cover their respective topics with regard to these garage "separation" walls, for what other reason would this section have been written? What other hazard is being addressed that is not fire blocking or draft stopping? "Seperation" , , , meaning thermal separation? If not thermal separation, then what separation?

 

[Yankee]

Keeping in mind that the wall in question is an exterior wall that is being protected because it supports the separation between the garage and the dwelling, what code sections are you talking about?

Don't you mean "is an exterior wall that is being protected because it supports the STRUCTURE between . . " ?

 

[ICE]

302.11 and 302.12 apply to combustible construction. Neither section prohibits a panelboard enclosure in any wall.

Table R302.6Structure(s) supporting floor/ceiling assemblies used for separation required by this section.......Not less than 1/2-inch gypsum board or equivalent

That's all there is to work with.

 

[Yankee]

So the wall is required to have 1/2 in gyp applied to the garage side. How does that get accomplished in the area of a panelboard that is inset between the studs? The requirrment is for gyp. A panel box/ door / front is not gyp.

It is the same scenario as the requirement to have gyp between living space and foam plastic insulation. Would you accept part of the construction to be a panel instead of gyp between living space and foam insulation?

 

[ICE]

So the wall is required to have 1/2 in gyp applied to the garage side. How does that get accomplished in the area of a panelboard that is inset between the studs? The requirrment is for gyp. A panel box/ door / front is not gyp.

The requirement isn't to place drywall on the garage side. The requirement it to protect the structure that supports the separation.

The adjacent studs and top plate could be faced with drywall.....double the adjacent studs and place a 2x block at the top plate.

Here is a list of the code sanctioned equivalents. I wouldn't allow #7 with an electrical panel.

R302.11.1 Fireblocking materials. Except as provided in

Section R302.11, Item 4, fireblocking shall consist of the

following materials.

1. Two-inch (51 mm) nominal lumber.

2. Two thicknesses of 1-inch (25.4 mm) nominal lumber

with broken lap joints.

3. One thickness of 23/32-inch (18.3 mm) wood structural

panels with joints backed by 23/32-inch (18.3 mm)

wood structural panels.

4. One thickness of 3/4-inch (19.1 mm) particleboard with

joints backed by 3/4-inch (19.1 mm) particleboard.

5. One-half-inch (12.7 mm) gypsum board.

6. One-quarter-inch (6.4 mm) cement-based millboard.

7. Batts or blankets of mineral wool or glass fiber or

other approved materials installed in such a manner as

to be securely retained in place.

 

[Yankee]

The requirement isn't to place drywall on the garage side. The requirement it to protect the structure that supports the separation. The adjacent studs and top plate could be faced with drywall.....double the adjacent studs and place a 2x block at the top plate.

Here is a list of the code sanctioned equivalents. I wouldn't allow #7 with an electrical panel.

R302.11.1 Fireblocking materials. Except as provided in

Section R302.11, Item 4, fireblocking shall consist of the

following materials.

1. Two-inch (51 mm) nominal lumber.

2. Two thicknesses of 1-inch (25.4 mm) nominal lumber

with broken lap joints.

3. One thickness of 23/32-inch (18.3 mm) wood structural

panels with joints backed by 23/32-inch (18.3 mm)

wood structural panels.

4. One thickness of 3/4-inch (19.1 mm) particleboard with

joints backed by 3/4-inch (19.1 mm) particleboard.

5. One-half-inch (12.7 mm) gypsum board.

6. One-quarter-inch (6.4 mm) cement-based millboard.

7. Batts or blankets of mineral wool or glass fiber or

other approved materials installed in such a manner as

to be securely retained in place.

I believe table 302.8 is clear that it is in fact a requirement to protect structure supporting the separated space with 1/2" gyp or equivalent, and that it is NOT only a fire blocking issue. There would be no need to write section 302.6 if it were only a fire blocking issue because fire blocking is already required under the section you quoted. More importantly to understand, is that many of the materials listed under fire blocking are not equivalent(s) to gyp board in all respects. Gyp board has both thermal properties and is non-combustible. The fire blocking materials do not necessarily have both properties and are used (also) for different purposes than the section we are discussing in R302.6, primarily used in concealed draft openings, not as a surface/skin material.

 

[ICE]

Allrighty then....I give up

 

[mtlogcabin]

I guess the core of my question is, is this section attempting to provide a thermal barrier?

Simple answer. No.

The IRC is prescriptive and a thermal barrier is only required to protect the interior of the building from foam plastics

What you are trying to accomplish is good I just do not see the code lanquage to achieve it.

BTW I agree a gypsum door installed over the panel would provide the extra protection you are seeking