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Frost Protection of Foundation/Footing

If you have a footing, it obviously must be below frost depth. The issue is the wording of the code that specifies that the foundation wall extend below frost depth. There is a section on footings and a section on foundation walls. They are two different entities. The chapter, however is for foundations. Which is what you get when you marry the two together.

Who is up for a code change submission?
 
I'll take a whack at it, to late to get anything into the IBC, but there's plenty of time for the IRC though, January 3, 2013. The Colorado Chapter is very active with code changes, we have a solid committee that reviews our proposals. I'll drop it in a new thread here when I have something.

Unless anyone else wants to do it?
 
We will have the 2009 here until at least 2015 so I don't see any reason for me to put time and effort into it. We will just keep enforcing it the way it is written without an hassles as we always have.
 
Written! :) How is it written? In my opinion I see it written as the foundation wall can be part of the footing and the bottom of the footing/wall has to be below frost line. :)
 
Jar, could you post a drawing of how it's done in PA! or your area? This has been a great topic, I might add.

pc1
 
Thoose of you that use to get the building journal and have back issues, check out the one for 2003 that has trench footings, that issue also had an article about smoke alarms for ADA requirements on the top of the magizine. I don't have the mag in the office.

pc1
 
Jar, just curious. Suppose you have a foundation wall atop a footing. If I take your interpretation literally, the entire foundation must be below the frost line (an obvious impossibility), or do you have them set bottom of the foudation wall 1 foot, 1 inch or maybe 1/8" below the frost line? That's why the code is written the way it is. I don't see a need for a code change. The real intent of the provision is to protect the foundation wall by placing the footing below the frost line. See my Post #61.
 
Why can't thhe foundation wall be part of the footing?

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Mule said:
Why can't thhe foundation wall be part of the footing?
400786615.jpg
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Ah, to be or not to be. Are footings (footers) and foundations (over-sized stem walls) mutually exclusive? If you only have a foundation (i.e., grade beam), is there no footing? If you only have a footing (i.e., thickened slab), is there no foundation? Since footing is mentioned in the text, maybe it doesn't need frost-protection. Where is Rene Magritte when you need him?
 
(Edited for typo in bold caps) Ah, to be or not to be. Are footings (footers) and foundations (over-sized stem walls) mutually exclusive? If you only have a foundation (i.e., grade beam), is there no footing? If you only have a footing (i.e., thickened slab), is there no foundation? Since footing is NOTmentioned in the text, maybe it doesn't need frost-protection. Where is Rene Magritte when you need him?
 
Correct me if I am wrong (as if there was no chance of that here ...) but when I read Table R301.2(1) for Frost Line Depth it doesn't it say it subpart b "The jurisdiction shall fill in the frost line depth column with the minimum depth of footing below finish grade?" Doesn't this specify the depth of footing, or am I reading this incorrectly?
 
GBrackins said:
Correct me if I am wrong (as if there was no chance of that here ...) but when I read Table R301.2(1) for Frost Line Depth it doesn't it say it subpart b "The jurisdiction shall fill in the frost line depth column with the minimum depth of footing below finish grade?" Doesn't this specify the depth of footing, or am I reading this incorrectly?
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Winner! Nice job GBrackins, now let's see what jar bounces back with. ;)
 
Not to distract here, but figure R403.1.(1) does show a wall bearing directly on soil.
 
Mac, in that case the bottom of the wall would be the footing. Using jar's logic that entire wall would have to be below the frost line. Tough to build something on it when it's underground. I've only seen that type of construction done once in my 27 years of inspections. The wall would have to meet the width requirements for footings in Table R403.1 I believe.
 
High Desert said:
Mac, in that case the bottom of the wall would be the footing. Using jar's logic that entire wall would have to be below the frost line. Tough to build something on it when it's underground. I've only seen that type of construction done once in my 27 years of inspections. The wall would have to meet the width requirements for footings in Table R403.1 I believe.
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Must EXTEND below the frost depth. Nothing says it has to be completely below frost depth.
 
Well look at that, good job GB.

It is amazing what you find when you read the book.
 
Theres two gb's?

Does a concrete bunker meet the foundation wall requirement of being below the frost line? ;)

pc1
 
jar ...

Correct me if I am wrong, but when I read Table R301.2(1) for Frost Line Depth doesn't it say in subpart b "The jurisdiction shall fill in the frost line depth column with the minimum depth of footing below finish grade?" Doesn't this specify the depth of footing, or am I reading this incorrectly? If this is correct, and the local jurisdiction specifies the depth of footing (not foundation wall) how can the foundation wall be below the footing?

I understand where you are coming from, but don't you have to use the whole and not just a part of the code? I agree section R403.1.4.1 needs to be reworded so that we don't have incorrect interpretations.
 
Actually the IRC does not allow for the straight wall to be the footing as it needs min 2" projections.....I have no heartburn with it actually working that way, but the prescriptive codesays.....

R403.1.1 Minimum size.

Minimum sizes for concrete and masonry footings shall be as set forth in Table R403.1 and Figure R403.1(1). The footing width, W, shall be based on the load-bearing value of the soil in accordance with Table R401.4.1. Spread footings shall be at least 6 inches (152 mm) in thickness. Footing projections, P, shall be at least 2 inches (51 mm) and shall not exceed the thickness of the footing. The size of footings supporting piers and columns shall be based on the tributary load and allowable soil pressure in accordance with Table R401.4.1. Footings for wood foundations shall be in accordance with the details set forth in Section R403.2, and Figures R403.1(2) and R403.1(3).

High Desert said:
Mac, in that case the bottom of the wall would be the footing. Using jar's logic that entire wall would have to be below the frost line. Tough to build something on it when it's underground. I've only seen that type of construction done once in my 27 years of inspections. The wall would have to meet the width requirements for footings in Table R403.1 I believe.
Click to expand...
 
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