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Would you allow this interlock kit?

gfretwell said:
I am not sure I see the difference in reference to "cords" and the some of other things you mentioned. The main complaint seems to be the listing of the generator.I have not really investigated all of the available generators to see if they are all listed the same and if some may have dual or triple listing categories.

For now I will accept that in Piedmont NC, hooking a generator up to a panel interlock is not allowed. rock on dude
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This generator has a portable panel mounted on the side just above the wheel for the use of portable tools such as but limited to drills and jack hammers.This generator takes power from terminals that are under the cover that you can see slightly lifted. It does not have the midpoint of the winding bonded to the frame.

The NEC took power of portable generators in the 2011 code cycle and in 590.6 they are required to have all 15, 20, and 30 amp receptacle of 120 and 240 volts GFCI protected. This in and of itself will stop the connection to a building by any other means than as a SDS.

To connect one using any other method and the GFCI will trip.
 
I wonder how long it will take the generator manufacturers to catch up with the 2011 code ... or even for the states to adopt it?

A typical generator

Shop Generac 5500-Watt Portable Generator at Lowes.com

In fact none of the generators I looked at in this Lowes site had a U/L listing or a GFCI.

I guess they assume that anything outboard of a plug/receptacle is "U/L optional".

Like I said before, there is a very good chance the generator will not even be present when these interlocks are installed.
 
gfretwell said:
I wonder how long it will take the generator manufacturers to catch up with the 2011 code ... or even for the states to adopt it?A typical generator

Shop Generac 5500-Watt Portable Generator at Lowes.com

In fact none of the generators I looked at in this Lowes site had a U/L listing or a GFCI.

I guess they assume that anything outboard of a plug/receptacle is "U/L optional".

Like I said before, there is a very good chance the generator will not even be present when these interlocks are installed.
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Not a problem...he has crystal balls.

jwelectric said:
No I am not guessing about anything I am asking the installer for more information. He will be providing all the information I will be needing for the inspection. This is the crystal ball and he can then watch while it is being demonstrated while I am doing the inspection.As the inspector I took an oath and I shall live by that oath and stop hunting ways to do 30 or 40 half baked inspections a day and jumping up and down as asking people to see what I didn't do.
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The way this guy talks you would think that they were made of steel.
 
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ICE said:
Not a problem...he has crystal balls.
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and the reason that you will never be able to compete with me when it comes to the electrical code
ICE said:
The way this guy talks you would think that they were made of steel.
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% childern, 9 grandchildren, and 2 great grandchildren they must be made out of something
 
The deal with the small stand-alone generators is the lack of knowledge of the theory of current flow with contractors and inspectors. Rule one- current is always looking for a path back to its source. Without proper bonding at the source this path does not exist. Things happen with any mechanical device be it a generator or our cars. Should there be a fault between the winding of the generator and the receptacle mounted on the frame without proper bonding the frame and equipment grounding conductor becomes energized. This means that on a 120 volt two wire circuit it would be possible to have 240 volts.

It has been my experience over my many years in the electrical field that both parties become complacent with methods used. A good example is the use of ground rods. The requirement for 25 ohms has always been in the NEC but over the years the use of one rod was accepted by both contractors and inspectors. Even to this day I see only one rod at saw services but they have the same requirement as any other system.

Once these Standards of Practice are accepted by both then the verbiage of the NEC is thrown to the wind and nothing can convince either that they are wrong.

With this stand-alone generators all one has to do is read this thread and see how everyone is trying to excuse the verbiage set forth in the Standards for the manufacture of these generators. Throughout this thread we read things like, “this switch is listed,” “it is not there when I do my inspection,” “well it is safer than what I have seen,” “just what does it hurt,” “you have never been cold,” “not all generators are listed”.

The one I like the best is not all generators are listed. I don’t think that the code officials realize just what is involved when they sign off on a non-listed item. When this happens the inspector just said, “I have evaluated this appliance for its safety and now make the statement that it conforms to any standard for safety set forth.” For more information on this statement read 110.2 of the NEC.

With the use of these stand-alone generators we must conform to all the rules set forth for their installations including but not limited to Articles 225, 250, 445, and 702 if connected as an optional standby system. If they are being used as temporary power then Article 590 applies instead of 702.

What is happening all across our nation is an attempt to bypass all the NEC rules in order to justify connecting one of these small boxes to our homes instead of using them as they were designed to be used.

I have spent many hours reading Article 702 of the NEC and see the term, “transfer switch” many times. When I look at UL’s listing of transfer switching devices the one thing I can’t find in either of these two books is the term “inter loc”. Could someone show this to me please?

In my opening paragraph I mentioned a fault internal of the generator. It is this reason that UL and NFPA joined forces to make the requirement found in 590.6 of the 2011 NEC. Now it makes no difference if you agree with me or not. It does make a difference if you disagree with those who have been charged with writing these rules.
 
JW has pretty much proven that there is no legal way to install a portable generator to supply a house electrical system and it has previously been shown that there is no legal way to supply a furnace blower or well pump with cords either. (None are listed for C&P for starters).

If you want to get technical you can string cords through windows and doors anyway. Not to mention the very real possibility that they will be damaged when people attempt to close said windows and doors because it is cold outside.

Now we are left with living in the 18th century or trying to find the least dangerous "illegal" way to do it, until NFPA and U/L plugs this hole.

BTW I am still looking for a U/L listed consumer grade generator at a big box where people are most likely to buy one.
 
Are you going to try to enforce 590.4(h)?

(H) Protection from Accidental Damage. Flexible cords and cables shall be protected from accidental damage. Sharp corners and projections shall be avoided. Where passing through doorways or other pinch points, protection shall be provided to avoid damage.
 
My real point has always been that NFPA and U/L has to wake up and realize that generators are here and they are not going away. These are not rare things that only were used in hospitals and other emergency service places by trained professionals. People are buying them by the millions and have no legal way to use them for what they bought them for. (heat, water and a modicum of normal 20th century convenience).

These interlocks are a safe and effective way to isolate the generator from the grid. The other issues you bring up are trivial compared to that, particularly when the alternative is stringing cords all around the house and hacking into well pump and furnace blower disconnects to connect then to a cord.
 
gfretwell said:
My real point has always been that NFPA and U/L has to wake up and realize that generators are here and they are not going away. These are not rare things that only were used in hospitals and other emergency service places by trained professionals. People are buying them by the millions and have no legal way to use them for what they bought them for. (heat, water and a modicum of normal 20th century convenience).
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There are many different sizes of generators and different generators for different uses. The small generators are fine if they are used in their scope. It is when we try to use something for what it was not designed for that we have problems. If we are going to use this thinking why not just let temporary wiring stay after the CO is issued after all it was safe for the construction why wouldn’t it be safe from now on?

gfretwell said:
These interlocks are a safe and effective way to isolate the generator from the grid. The other issues you bring up are trivial compared to that, particularly when the alternative is stringing cords all around the house and hacking into well pump and furnace blower disconnects to connect then to a cord.
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Those interlocks have their place but with a portable stand-alone generator is not one of them.Wonder why they even mention all that trivial junk in the codes for to start with. I think we should submit a proposal just to have all that trivial stuff removed don’t you?

Comfort cost money. If comfort is what we are looking for then spring for a real generator that is installed in a compliant manner and quit making excuses to do something illegal in the name of comfort. For every person looking to make this hookup to their house and doing it illegally there are 10 families that have nothing at all. What about these 10 families? Instead of trying to figure some way to help those do something illegal why are we not thinking about those who have nothing?

I have two of these small Honda generators. I have been as much as 9 days without any utility. I only had two cords coming into the house and the other generator was connected to the well so we could water the horses. Where are all these cords and hacking you mentioned coming from? For the record when we were without power it was in the dead of winter and it was cold.
 
How did you connect the generator to the well pump in a code compliant way? Was that well pump listed for cord and plug connection?
 
gfretwell said:
How did you connect the generator to the well pump in a code compliant way? Was that well pump listed for cord and plug connection?
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590.1 Scope.

The provisions of this article apply to temporary ELECTRIC POWER and lighting installations.

590.4(E) Disconnecting Means. Suitable disconnecting switches OR PLUG CONNECTORS shall be installed to permit the disconnection of all ungrounded conductors of each temporary circuit. Multiwire branch circuits shall be provided with a means to disconnect simultaneously all ungrounded conductors at the power outlet or panelboard where the branch circuit originated. Identified handle ties shall be permitted.

(H) Protection from Accidental Damage. Flexible cords and cables shall be protected from accidental damage. Sharp corners and projections shall be avoided. Where passing through doorways or other pinch points, protection shall be provided to avoid damage.

Commentary- Flexible cords and cables, because of the nature of their use, are permitted to pass through doorways, unlike the requirement in 400.8(3).

Well pumps have no listing as to the means of disconnect. Where does that idea come from?

I usually open the disconnect at the well and terminate the cord that plugs into the generator to the load conductors per the following section of the NEC

(I) Termination(s) at Devices. FLEXIBLE CORDS and cables entering enclosures containing devices requiring termination shall be secured to the box with fittings designed for the purpose

gfretwell said:
BTW "cold" is a relative thing. Cold in North Carolina is not Minnesota cold.
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Cold defined- Feeling no warmth; uncomfortably chilled. Is this not about the same time that we get up to doing something about being cold. Do not people in the Sunshine state have some sort of heat? What is your coldest temp? The house I lived in on Pa. Ave. in Altamonte Springs had an electric heater in the hall wall and the two years I lived there I didn’t see any ice anywhere although the second winter I did turn on the heat a couple of times. There are ways to use one of the small generators correctly. You can even connect them to your home’s wiring system as long as it is done by the code. The code says only as a SDS. Knowing this why do we keep trying to make one excuse after another to do it incorrectly?
 
You are the one who is strict about listing, show me one submersible well pump that says they are listed for cord and plug connection or a set of installation instructions from the manufacturer that says it is allowed. The same is true about furnace blowers.

The issue with "cold" is whether your pipes freeze.

If 590 trumps all of the listing and labeling concerns most of your argument goes away.
 
You are the one who made the statement of not being listed for cord and plug so I would say that it is up to you to show where it would be a violation.

You show where cord and plug in not allowed for either.

I know that around here (it might be a hill thing) that when it is going to be cold we do things like put antifreeze in our cars and trucks and drain any pipe that might freeze.

I suppose that if those that live in tornado alley had one of these connected to their homes the wind wouldn’t blow their roofs off.

There is a way to connect one of these temporary power sources to keep a gas furnace going as outlined in Article 590 of the NEC.

I think the biggest problem is that this ain’t the way we want to do it so we ain’t gonna to.
 
590.3© EMERGENCIES and Tests. Temporary electric power and lighting installations shall be permitted during EMERGENCIES and for tests, experiments, and developmental work. and for tests, experiments, and developmental work.
 
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